Back by popular demand!!! No, seriously, someone requested it.
If you’ve never read this post before, here’s the basic idea… I’ve come to realize that there are several women in Hollywood that I find attractive but can’t, for the life of me, decide whether or not I think they are hot. So, I’m forcing the decision on to you, dear readers. Below you will find the arguments. The question is, are they Hot or Not?
JENNIFER GREY.
PROS: It’s Baby from Dirty Dancing. Looks gorgeous since having the nose job.
CONS: You’re always going to remember that Dirty Dancing nose!
JENNY McCARTHY.
PROS: Playmate of the Year (1993).
CONS: It’s 2012. She is a walking, talking whoopi cushion. Claims to have cured Autism (???).
TINA FEY.
PROS: Cute. Talented. Arguably one of the funniest women since Lucille Ball (I said “arguably”).
CONS: Liz Lemon seems like she may be a little too real!
JENNIFER ANNISTON.
PROS: See. Picture. Above.
CONS: Clearly has relationship issues. Slight Butterface situation. Attracted to John Mayer types.
KEIRA KNIGHTLEY.
PROS: Very pretty. Slender model type body. Talented actress.
CONS: Thin to anorexic proportions. Her jaw may have it’s own central nervous system!
Andrew (8)
Wayne (8)
John (6)
Josh (6)
Jessica (5)
Justin (5)
Lauren (5)
Steve (5)
Dave Enkosky (4)
Sir Phobos (4)
JENNIFER GREY – HOT
I like her old nose!
JENNY McCARTHY – NOT
Any positive physical attributes she has are completely overshadowed by how moronic she is.
TINA FEY- HOT
Funny is sexy.
JENNIFER ANNISTON – HOT
All the work she puts into her body shows. She looks better the older she gets and was hotter than Brooklyn Decker in Just Go With It.
KEIRA KNIGHTLEY – HOT
She has a gorgeous face and yummy accent. I agree she is very thin but I believe her when she says that it is her natural weight. I can’t hold that against her.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 9, 2012 3:44 pm
With all the negative Twitter feedback this post got, I’m glad a girl kicked things off with the comments!!!
Twitter: mrsthuro
April 9, 2012 6:59 am
Jennifer Grey-No
Jenny McCarthy-No
Tina Fey-Physically no, everything else yes.
Jennifer Aniston-Yes
Keira Knightley-It depends.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 9, 2012 9:10 am
Depends on what?
Twitter: mrsthuro
April 9, 2012 9:24 am
Pretty much what she’s wearing/how she’s posing/the expression on her face. Hot to not can change quite quickly with her.
Jennifer Grey- No
Jenny McCarthy- if she’s not talking
Tina Fey- believe it or not, there are times.
Jennifer Aniston- Yes
Keira Knightley- I usually don’t like women who are bone skinny, but she is my lone exception. So, YES.
Jennifer Aniston is a Butterface? You’re shroomin’.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 9, 2012 9:09 am
Okay, I knew this one would come up. I totally misused the term “Butterface” with Jen Anniston. She has a very cute face but not a hot one… she also has a smoking hot body.
All I meant is that her body is much hotter than her face but I think she’s damn fine… I think they’re all damn fine, but Hot?
Not sure I think she’s hot or just very cute.
Hot, not, Hot, Hot, Hot
Twitter: manilovefilms
April 9, 2012 11:39 am
The title of the post is Hot or Not, people, and anyone who claims that McCarthy ain’t hot is high – yes, even in 2012. Ok, maybe that’s an overstatement, and people are certainly entitled to their own thoughts on what = hot, but she doesn’t seem to belong here, personality issues notwithstanding.
Then again, I don’t feel like a few of these women belong here.
Grey – I can see the argument.
Fey – Very cute, and occasionally hot (and has gotten hotter over the years).
Aniston – I 100% know what you mean, Kai. Still, since she’s pretty far from being an actual butterface, she’s just plain hot.
Knightley – does almost nothing for me most of the time. She’s a pretty face – usually – but yeah, is a bit too waifish.
McCarthy is just kinda ehh, I was more into her when I first hit puberty.
Oh and you all are pigs.
Twitter: agracru
April 9, 2012 11:44 am
Grey– attractive. Doesn’t smolder, but she’s a fine lady.
Fey– not hot, but very pretty. “Hot” and “pretty” are two very different distinctions though.
McCarthy– smokin’. I’m not a huge fan of blondes but I can’t say otherwise here.
Anniston– for the GQ picture alone she’s the hottest woman in the list. Easily.
Knightley– too skinny for me most of the time.
Can I make a plea for a similar thread with male celebrities, if we’re going to start ranking sexy ladies? It’s only fair.
Twitter: manilovefilms
April 9, 2012 11:48 am
I fully welcome it – you wanna do it?
Yes. Yes I do.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 9, 2012 3:44 pm
See my comments in the e-mail we sent and then have at it.
Lauren, I’ll help if you’d like! Warning though, my taste in men is not the usual beefcake type.
Yes! All the glorious men, of all types, in their … gloriousness!
Grey– Not
Fey– Hot. Fey is sexy as hell, one of those women that get’s better with age. Her comedic chops somehow make her hotter.
McCarthy– Hot. Not really my cup of tea, but there is no denying it.
Anniston– Cute. That’s about it.
Knightley– Not. I hate to sound like such a superficial jerk here, but her facial features are always a distraction for me, including her jaw, cheekbones, vacant smile and sometimes eyebrows. Which is weird because I find Natalie Portman smokin’. I will admit that there are some pictures out there of Knightley that are absolutely beautiful, but for the most part, she seems too much like a cartoon at times.
Wasn’t going to comment on this one. It just made me tired.
But then I read this article by Ashley Judd and then I realized that I at least should say SOMETHING.
Do you really, really want to be a part of that?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/09/ashley-judd-slaps-media-in-the-face-for-speculation-over-her-puffy-appearance.html
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 8:39 am
I read your article and will be responding in length later today. Please read and feel free to respond.
YES!! It is back, Dylan listened to me!!
JENNIFER GREY – 100% not! She looks just like my sister, pre nose job. I cannot get past that.
JENNY McCARTHY – Hot for sure. I don’t think I could date her though, too crazy. She would be the “guy” friend that hopefully gets naked all the time.
TINA FEY – Meh. I can’t tell. I love her though, funny as hell. If she was Liz Lemon in real life, minus the disgusting stuff, then she would be ideal. A nerdy cute chic that likes to stay home, eat and watch movies…perfect.
JENNIFER ANNISTON – Hot. Totally hot with a nice body. I would hate being around her though, just from what I hear. Another girl with a nose job on the list…do I sense a trend?
KEIRA KNIGHTLEY – Hot. Agree with what you said though. Not a fan of her tight lipped smirk that she does, but damn, she has the best legs in the business.
I am so happy that you brought this back!
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 9:51 am
Glad you like it, Mr. Cage!!!
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 9:28 am
I feel compelled to defend this post after reading some comments left in this post and on Twitter. In fact, I fear this comment may deserve a post of it’s own.
First, a little background… I had actually retired this post which is a stupid move as it is a popular post that generates a ton of traffic and comments. It was brought back after receiving requests for it from some of our readers. The reason I stopped doing it is merely because it’s not very challenging to write though I do enjoy doing it.
The post itself, started on my old website and was inspired by Kristen Wiig. See, I think Wiig is superhot but could not figure out why. Her body and face aren’t what I’d call a “10″. I’m sure my attraction was inspired by her talent and sense of humor which I WOULD define as a “10″. It got me wondering what it was that leads us to define celebrities as attractive.
Now, my motivating force was not entirely pure. Men hang out away from women and constantly rate women over superficial things. However, that is not the point here. The “pros” and “cons” on these lists were added as a comedic form of commentary. The big joke being that there are no real pros and cons.
The one criteria for this list is that these women MUST be attractive. The big joke going in is that we do think they’re hot… but why? And can other things, such as personality effect your opinion of someone’s God given looks.
I think it’s fun to say people like Kristen Wiig and Tina Fey are hot because they are funny and talented. Adversely, I think it’s hilarious that someone as beautiful as Jenny McCarthy can ruin people’s opinions of themselves through outrageous and obnoxious behavior. I think it’s funny that in an attempt to make herself more aesthetically pleasing, which she did, Jennifer Grey could also torpedo a pretty successful career featuring appearances in some monumental films.
The funny thing to me is also that people could say we’re objectifying women after seeing the pics used in this post. Those aren’t photoshopped. How is it okay for a woman to put herself nude or half-naked on the cover of a national or, in some cases, international magazine and wrong for me to have an opinion on her appearance.
We’re not calling these women fat or aged or saying that they have had work done (Jennifer Grey obviously excluded)… we are not posting papparazzi photos of these celebrities on vacation at the beach and circling what appears to be stretch marks, cellulite or other perceived imperfections. We’re merely looking at women and asking if you think they are Hot or Not? That’s all. It’s just a discussion and I think people need to lighten up a bit.
On a sidenote, one of the reasons this post carried over to this site is because it was a favorite of our wives. Please notice too, the first two commentors we had were females.
We don’t do this to objectify women. We do this to celebrate them and have a laugh.
And it’s not just the ladies… I have a done a male list in the past and some of our female writers will be putting one of those out next week. Would that enrage people as well?
I agree Kai. I certainty don’t take the objectification of women lightly but I think it’s obvious that your post came from a light-hearted place, aimed at some humorous debate.
We used to do a similar segment on our podcast that had essentially the same endgame. Everyone has their celeb crushes and for totally varying reasons. The point of the game, and this post, is to see why people think in different terms, not perpetuate misogyny. We have men and woman on our show and each week we were all rating both the ladies and the dudes. It comes from a stupid, fantasy-based, well-meaning place.
Hot or not to me, seemed to be based off of personal preferences, is this ‘your cup of tea’ kind of thing. And as proved in your comments here, you are obviously perfectly willing to do a similar segment with men.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 10:30 am
That comment was so beautiful that, were I not a married man, I may have just proposed to you!
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 10, 2012 1:24 pm
I agree with Lindsay here. This isn’t to diminish women, it’s an open discussion about personal preferences and there’s nothing wrong with discussing that. I’m also certain that some of the people here or on twitter weren’t around for when you posted lists about the hot guys you had man crushes on back on “The List”.
Sexy is sexy, and attraction is very subjective. It’s interesting to find what turns people on and doesn’t, I don’t see how this post is in any way offensive unless someones personal platforms or possibly even insecurities are being placed her as a measure against a good natured fun discussion.
Why are people always pooping in others cheerios?
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:36 pm
That is true. I did a man crush list on my old site that was featured on WordPress and got hundreds of positive comments.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:38 pm
The dialogue was very different but the images were very similar:
http://kaispace.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/my-man-crushes/
Twitter: coreyatad
April 10, 2012 2:33 pm
Are you seriously comparing that man crushes post with this one on any level? The pictures are not the problem in any way, shape or form. The problem is the tone of the content surrounding them. That man-crush article is a positive piece that illustrates both a comfort in your own sexuality as well as actors you find attractive, with proper explanations for each.
The post here is sexist in every way right down to the title. “Hot or Not”? As though there is some binary way to appreciate all women? You could have mitigated this by having thought out paragraphs for each lady, discussing all the things about them you find attractive. Instead you go for binary “pro” and “con” labels for superficial features. It’s nothing but reductionist and sexist and that you would compare the two at all is insulting to me as a reader.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 2:45 pm
Corey, I believe I stated above that the dialogue was different though the images were similar. Honestly, I have no problem doing either kind of list about both of the sexes.
Twitter: coreyatad
April 10, 2012 3:18 pm
But you didn’t do both kinds of lists about both sexes. You did a positive post about men, and a decidedly lazy and sexist one about women. Your intent may have been pure (or even a little cynical to get hits), but I don’t see how you can deny the result.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 3:51 pm
I can assure you that this was not for hits. We’ve done this post before with an average amount of views and comments. It was brought back by request.
I’ll leave it at that.
So, let me list the reasons why you’re wrong.
1. The entire reason why this is inherently sexist is because quantifying women’s attractiveness only furthers the idea that women are only worthwhile if they meet a certain standard (like a 1-10 scale). There are ways to talk about attractive women without making it gross and sexist and using the rating system typically isn’t it. I mean, the way you talk about Kristen Wiig, you’re practically dismembering her to figure out which parts of her are a 10 and which aren’t. Objectify much?
2. You can’t just pretend like this exists in a vacuum; you can’t just pretend that if you had a hot or not list for men it would be the same thing and then it would make this less gross. Because you can’t ignore the societal demands placed on women in regards to how attractive they are and you can’t act like these same kinds of standards are imposed on men in the same way. For women, no matter what we do, or who we are, or how much we accomplish we are still always judged on the basis of how attractive we are and the less attractive, the less fuck-worthy we’re deemed, the more our worth goes down. Don’t act like this post exists in some separate world where these things aren’t true.
3. The whole IDEA of a hotness list is bullshit–who’s to say what is and isn’t attractive? Where does a 5 end and a 6 begin? All of these ratings are completely arbitrary and mean nothing–and yet, the power these kinds of thoughts have over people is immense and dangerous.
4. It’s not that you can’t have an opinion on whether or not a person is attractive (but uh, the whole “why does a woman get to be naked BUT I DON’T GET TO OBJECTIFY HER bit is bullshit–women’s bodily autonomy /= you’re right to be a creeper and let’s not even GET INTO the pressure to be more nude, more of the time because it’s what dudes like you want to see from female stars because then I’ll never stop talking)–it’s that, as I’ve said before, hot or not bullshit like this tends to have a denotation of worth to it. It furthers the idea that successful women are only truly successful if people want to bone them. And that’s a fucked up standard to internalize all your goddamn life.
5. You are derailing all over the place. Just because SOME women like your wife thinks this isn’t sexist doesn’t mean it isn’t–doesn’t take away from the fact that some women DO see the sexism in it and it doesn’t invalidate our complaints. (http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-google-cache-reconstruction/#backup)
6. More derailing–trying to invalidate people who call this shit out by implying we need to lighten up (http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-google-cache-reconstruction/#sensitive). Cause you know, bitches be so oversensitive when it comes to being objectified and having to live with a harmful standard of beauty!
7. Lol at your gender stereotypes about men.
Ultimately I know you’re not going to care about all this and you’re still going to defend this post as non-sexist. And I’m sure a lot of other people, male and female will do the same. But it doesn’t change the fact that it is, in fact, sexist.
TL;DR – I’m butthurt.
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 11, 2012 5:52 am
I give this comment a 2.5 and it’s fuckability limited unless you like angry sex.
Twitter: ftstweets
April 10, 2012 2:29 pm
I understand people’s objection to this post to an extent, but apparently if you just flat out call someone hot it’s not a big deal (aka our site’s Babe of the Week and our Who You’d Rather podcast feature from long ago have received absolutely no backlash). Lindsay and I have posted a weekly feature just like this (without our own personal pros/cons withstanding) for over a year now!
I object this kind of post. You already know that I object to the acronym of your site. Both objections come from the sexualization and objectification of women. I understand that this is meant as a lighthearted post that discusses why people find women attractive and that you’ll balance it out by posting one about men. I object to that as well. Yes, all of these women have posed professionally and perhaps that should lower their credentials as actresses that they use their sexuality to draw people into their films. But you’re taking advantage of that fact to promote your own site. To paraphrase a famous quote, this should be about judging them not on their sexuality, but, at the very least, on the quality of acting if not their character.
Twitter: manilovefilms
April 10, 2012 11:58 am
Question for all who object to this post: is it the idea of the post that bothers you more or the selection of photos used? Would you be cool with it had Kai chose only head shots?
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:06 pm
I don’t think the pics are the issue. Though, I doubt they help.
Jess, I get that you respectfully disagree or object. I respect that.
Though, how is MILF offensive if it stands for Man, I Love Films… I realize we are very tongue in cheek about it. Also, you’ve been on MILFcast like 5 times so you can’t object that much, right?
For the record, Dylan didn’t want the acronym associated much with the site when we started this thing. Unfortunately, it’s just so damn catchy.
Actually, yes, I think the spirit of the post Kai described above would be met with the idea of just head shots (without lip licking or other suggestive behavior). That would inspire the discussion I think you were lightheartedly looking for.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:39 pm
Okay… fair enough. I thought it was important to use the images to show that these women are putting themselves out there but if you think it kills the point, I’ll consider using tamer photos in the future.
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 10, 2012 1:30 pm
I think it’s a mistake to judge them for using their sexuality in film or their celebrity. What is wrong with embracing your sexuality? It’s part of human nature.
Besides it seems rather naive to negates Hollywood’s obsession with physical beauty and then give others a hard time for perpetuating it. Whether it plays to your own belief system or not, it exists, they play the roles and if these actresses (AND actors) didn’t want to be a part of this world there are plenty of other vocations available.
I liked the body shots Dylan. Jennifer Aniston does essentially nothing for me but I think she has one of the most beautiful bodies in Hollywood and being an older woman still looks outstanding. Jenny McCarthy made a career out of her looks, and she’s still gorgeous, but also funny. Tina Fey in the sexy pose is the most poignant one to me, because she has made her career out of her humor and intelligence, but she’s also celebrating the fact that she’s a stunning and sexual woman. That’s empowering.
Twitter: manilovefilms
April 10, 2012 1:44 pm
Amen, Heather.
To deny that any of you have ever looked at another human and, either, by yourself or with friends, discussed the merits of their attractiveness, is to tell me that you’ve never seen the sun before. I’m just not buying it. As Heather plainly puts it, these people play and fill roles willingly and can step away at any time.
So what if it’s sophomoric, locker-room behavior? I don’t care if this reminds people of Maxim or FHM – Kai’s free to call this a joke, but I think it’s just fun. It’s okay to be shallow every now and then, folks, so long as that’s not your only focus. Everything done in moderation…
“. It’s okay to be shallow every now and then, folks, so long as that’s not your only focus.”
Cool. Can’t wait to see Kai showing a serious, non-sexist, thoughtful side in future posts. I’m sure he wants to prove himself now. And making a hot-or-not posts about guys is not the solution.
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 10, 2012 1:55 pm
I can be entirely superficial and make no apologies for it. You are completely right Dylan. If people didn’t care about physical appearance no one would shower, buy beauty products, and do things to attract whatever sex they dig. I don’t enjoy the false expectations Hollywood has created for women (AND MEN TOO LADIES) but this post has nothing to do with that.
I didn’t see the post as a joke either, but I thought it light hearted and fun. I’m certainly not offended and I get why some may not enjoy it, but can we please stray away from making it sound like these women are victims.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 2:01 pm
Jessica, I have nothing to fucking prove. I have a year of posts here on the site of a variety of content. Funny though that I don’t recall you having much to say about those.
Heather and Dylan, you are right that there is nothing wrong with embracing your sexuality.
But Heather, you say it is “it seems rather naive to negates (sic) Hollywood’s obsession with physical beauty and then give others a hard time for perpetuating it.” Instead, I’d like to suggest that it’s naive to not realize that by perpetuating Hollywood’s obsession with beauty we are part of the problem. That it is our duty to give people who agree to be complicit in this structure a hard time. Hollywood’s obsession with beauty is an American obsession with beauty that has extreme ill effects in how women in and out of Hollywood see themselves and live their lives, and it has the same effects on men, too.
And to suggest that women who don’t like it should just find other jobs is really disheartening. Some women just want to follow their passion and be actresses. It’s not their fault that cultural pressures insist they strip down in order to be successful. The system is flawed. Asking them to either pose nude or just suck it up and find another livelihood is problematic at best.
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 10, 2012 2:22 pm
I do think it can be problematic Joanna, but I don’t think taking pictures in their panties here is problematic. If they chose to take nude photo’s I don’t think it’s problematic. I think it’s presumptuous to assume they’ve been “forced” by society and Hollywood to pose this way at all. I also don’t agree that women using their sexuality as power is wrong. I will and do every day and I’m fanfuckingtabulous. And I don’t agree it’s our “duty” because it is an opinion not a fact. It’s your opinion, not mine, and not necessarily the rest of the worlds. I’m not going to insist that my point of view be shoved down everyone else’s throats because if it was we’d all be in our underpants everyday.
And yep, it might be a harsh world, but a lot of people can’t get jobs because of disabilities, disorders, or physical detriments, etc. I’ll never make it big on Broadway because I can’t sing. We don’t have to get rid of musicals so I can have my dream too. Not everyone can be what they want and not everyone gets what they want. Fortunately you can do a lot to look good and change your appearance if Hollywood is the route you want to choose. There are plenty of women who are successful actresses who don’t pose in nude or sexy pics either and then women like Kate Winslet gets naked constantly for films but it’s considered artsy as opposed to Demi Moore going sleazy for Striptease. It’s apples and oranges. I might agree with that sentiment but it doesn’t make me right. It’s my opinion.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:07 pm
Another question: If it garners these discussions and provides an outlet for them , is it a bad thing?
Only if it doesn’t change anything. If you do the post again with different women and avoid the overt sex and objectification aspect of it, then my objection might have borne fruit. If you pick only slightly less provocative photos, then yes, I think it’s a bad thing to objectify women just to provoke discussion.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:37 pm
So the objectification comes from the photos and not the theme?
In my opinion, yes. I’m not an expect on the topic, but that was how I felt. If you want to have the discussion you described (why do we find certain people attractive), then I think you need to do it without the sexualized photos. I think the discussion of attractiveness (rather than hotness, which implies only a physical attractiveness) is an interesting one. It feel like trying to explain why you love a particularly movie – it’s not easy to explain, you just love it. But pulling apart that argument, that discussion is interesting to me. Mostly it was the use of these photos in this context that bothered me. Thanks for helping me frame my argument clearly.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:51 pm
No prob. I know you certainly know we don’t hate women. Apologies if it came off that way.
No, I guess I’ve been a bit of a lurker like I am at many blogs. Not sure you’ve ever spoken up at my place? Anyway I’ll try to be vocal a bit more often. Not just about this post. No hard feelings, honestly. This post just rubbed me the wrong way.
I must disagree with Kai’s entire explanation.
Whatever it was that inspired you to post about what makes a funny and talented comedienne “hot” is nowhere to be found in this post. Precious little in this has been dedicated to their talent (or lack thereof). The majority of the bullet points underneath the photos zero in on the women’s looks. What’s worse is that you don’t do yourself any favours by choosing photos that all seem as though they were featured in Maxim. Yes, they posed for them individually for reasons of their own choosing, but by gathering them all together, you have clearly outlined the tone this post is going for.
Like you said yourself, your motivating force was not entirely pure. I think what’s more accurate is the opposite: Your motivating force wasn’t entirely sexist. You wondered to yourself what it was about a talented person that influenced your regard for their appearance. Unfortunately, that’s not all that evident in this post. What’s happening here reads more like you (and every commenter who played along) are wondering what physical traits influence your regard for a celebrity. You may have intentioned it as a comedic form of commentary, but your comedy was poorly crafted. It’s the difference between Chris Rock doing his routine, and a n office co-worker quoting it badly.
You say that it’s fun top say that Wiig and Fey are hot because they are talented. Maybe it’s not fun – maybe it’s just true. Maybe we are reaching a point where a person’s attractiveness comes not just from what they look like, but for who they are. Conversely, what fun is there in taking pot shots at women who for one reason or another have undergone cosmetic surgery? Jennifer Grey not looking in the mirror and liking what she saw isn’t funny to me – it’s sad.
The issue at hand that hit a nerve for many people is that your defense of “This is all a joke” doesn’t come through. Comedic tone doesn’t always come through in writing, and unfortunately, it doesn’t come through here. So when you take a line of comedy that teeters on sexism for starters, and miss on the execution, what you’re left with is something that feels like it’d be at home in a copy of FHM or on Spike TV.
The point is that “Hot or Not” reduces someone to something truly superficial, and whether it’s a woman or a man up for discussion is irrelevant. If people want to have these sorts of conversations in bars, locker rooms and living rooms, then power to them. If they know women that want to join in for laughs, that’s fine, but it doesn’t excuse the end result.
When you decide to take that sort of conversation and publish it, you’re giving it a whole other meaning. You paint it with a brush of shallowness and sexism. What’s worse is that when that sort of post comes from a site with multiple writers, it makes everyone who contributes look bad by association.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:41 pm
Is this directed at the post or your disdain of Man, I Love Films (aka: Dylan & Kai)?
I’m not gonna delete you, Hatter. You have just as much a right to have your opinion heard as anyone else.
For clarity’s sake – Everything I have written is a reaction to this post and only this post.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:50 pm
Mmkay.
LOL What is this all about? Everyone knows exactly what Kai is intending with this post. It’s all in the title!!! And fook, we all know how sleazy Kai can be ahha
Twitter: kaiderman
April 11, 2012 7:55 am
I can be. Our podcast is very crass. It’s hosted by a guy and girl who love talking sexuality. But I’m certainly not a sexist. If this came off as sexist, I am truly sorrybut the anger from the other side is overwhelming… Jess and Joanna excluded cuz they disagree, have opinions, make sound arguments and are polite.
I’m a husband, father of a little girl… hell, the best man at my wedding was a girl. I certainly have no problem with women. This is all very frustrating. Don’t stoke the flames, Castor.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 12:47 pm
And just so everyone knows. We did this post twice before and retired it. It was brought back because of requests from readers.
Ultimately, I don’t care what anyone thinks of me or the post, I just hope everyone realizes it didn’t come from a place of malice or ill intent. We were just having fun. If it offended, apologies.
Kai, I’m going to write more later, but please let me just assure you that disliking or disagreeing with your post/argument does not mean I dislike you. Nobody thinks you are trying to be malicious or to intentionally offend.
Debate is healthy, as long as it’s kept clean. I promise to do that.
More to come later… (ah, work).
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:07 pm
I appreciate that, Jo. Especially from one of our own female writers and the author of the Reel Feminist blog.
Make sure and chime in on Jess’s comments. I’d like to hear your opinions on that.
Intent doesn’t mean anything. Lots of people don’t intend to do a lot of hurtful, problematic things. The problem lies in the fact that after being called out, instead of listening you get defensive and try to shut down people who don’t agree as being oversensitive. And that’s bullshit and IS harmful. Whether you intended it to be or not.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:28 pm
I’d hardly say I’m not listening. See Jess’s comments above.
I do believe when people begin saying things about me or the post, I have a right to explain myself and where the post came from.
Believe me, if it’s deemed to be harmful in it’s current form, it will be corrected (through your feedback) or abandoned entirely.
Twitter: manilovefilms
April 10, 2012 1:33 pm
Yeah, I don’t get this, either. Kai, after being called out, explained his reasoning behind the post in a sound manner, but he’s certainly listening and shutting people down.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:41 pm
I think he means “NOT” shutting people down.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:44 pm
And, of course intent is important… it’s the difference between Manslaughter and premeditated Murder and works all the way back down.
Ashley, I agree that intent doesn’t matter, though I have to say that aside from one negative reply Kai’s been on the whole pretty receptive, though he still disagrees.
Thanks for the support!
Of course, you don’t see your rant as harmful, but it is. You took a fun post and tore it and Kai down for whatever selfish reason. This post has nothing to do with you, but you made it about you.
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 10, 2012 1:48 pm
I love discussions about sexuality and crushes and what attracts people to one another, especially in the world of celebrity where you don’t actually know these people. I don’t understand why the topic has escalated to the place that it has. Reputable sites across the web start topics like this every day in posts and on twitter and Facebook. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and yes posting this has given many people the platform to state their personal opinions about objectifying women in a physical way………….this does happen but sorry I don’t believe it has here.
First of all, the pictures weren’t taken at gun point. Each one of those women posed for those sexy photos and I happen to think they all look beautiful. Every woman is beautiful when she believes it, and it’s not about the skimpy clothes it’s about the fact that some of them might not be typical “bombshells” (save McCarthy) but still are damn sexy women. I don’t understand why that makes other women uncomfortable. Just as they have the right to pose this way, you have the right to not like it, but that doesn’t make them objectified and that doesn’t make any of the men or women that have responded positively to this post a pig or less of a woman. It’s one thing to state how you feel about this (like I believe Jess has) and it’s quite another to attack another for their opinion, and the problem here to me seems to be that some people feel righteous. There is no right, there is no wrong. There are differing opinions.
It saddens me that I came to this page in good spirits and saw it spiral into an argument about sexism. I applaud each of the women who posed for these photos and think they are all beautiful.
“I love discussions about sexuality and crushes and what attracts people to one another, especially in the world of celebrity where you don’t actually know these people.” I TOTALLY agree. I think that’s a great way to look at it. And I think that is buried within this post, particularly with Kai’s intention (see his Man-crush post). I think the reason that the Man-crush post doesn’t send up flags even though the photos are of similar sexualized caliber is that Kai articulated (well) his arguments. That left little doubt of his honorable intentions. I think, from reading everything, it’s the reductionist attitude of being either “Hot or Not?” rather that “What turns you on?” as the title which is part of the problem combined with the sexy photos. And Kai, I’ll appear as often as you’ll have me on the unfortunately acronymed MILFcast. I know you respect women, and obviously adore them. And I know men (*cough Dylan) and women (Shirley/Heather) adore you. That’s enough proof for me.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 7:36 pm
Thanks, Jess. Been along time since anything had anything nice to say around here.
You of course have an open invitation on the poorly named podcast!
HEY!
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 7:42 pm
HEY! What?
mine wasn’t that long ago. lol.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 7:45 pm
Good point. It just feels like forever. See the above!
I still appreciate it, Kano!
I hear ya. I was just joking anyway.
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 11, 2012 7:24 am
Yep! And I completely understand how it initially could come across as offensive in certain ways, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s to the point where it’s splitting hairs and it isn’t about the post. There are plenty of things I don’t agree with or have personal content with on websites that I like or respect. Sometimes I chime in (like today) and sometimes I don’t, but I always try and maintain the forethought that these are personal feelings and reactions not facts because we note a few articles where other people have noted their feelings on said topics. Whenever that or personal attacks happen, things no longer are even worth discussing which was why I so appreciated and respected to you and Kai’s conversation. Each of you listened to each other and had respect in spite of differing opinions. SMOOCH!
Kudos Kai on creating a topic that has brought such a wide range of discussion and back-and-forth. That is so fun.
I for one do not understand or see any problem here. This is a site about Film and a site that goes much further than the film itself. So, here we are looking at the female figure and discussing if in fact our views of said female changes our attraction to them by how they perform on screen and or in life.
Keep it going because obviously some people enjoy it. I love this site, but I do not love all of the posts or topics. If I don’t enjoy a certain topic I simply do not read it.
There is something here for everyone and that’s a good thing.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 1:55 pm
Noted and appreciated, Kano. Thanks!
First off I want to say that I know Kai did not mean to offend anyone. Unfortunately, he unintentionally did. This kind of post (and the discussion around it) illustrates how thoroughly ingrained in patriarchy our culture truly is.
I’m not gonna lie, I hoped that we at MILF would all stay away from ‘girls are hot’ posts. I need to state outright that in the world of Sexist Blog posts this is comparatively mild, but it’s still sexist. Yes, we all make jokes about attractive men and women, but I hoped that MILF would stay away from posts divorced from a focus on cinema and film/TV, and focused solely on what is essentially an excuse to look at virtually naked women. Whether or not that was Kai’s intent, that’s what this post really is: an excuse to look at ‘hot chicks.’ There’s little content aside from the pictures, and while Kai was trying to be funny, the humor is consumed by the structure of the post itself–sexy pictures with a pro/con list.
Ideas like pro/con lists scare me, because they reduce women (or men or whoever), as Ryan said, to less than human. It’s one thing to say a woman is attractive, and another to say she’s attractive but her nose job ruins it, etc. If someone did a pro/con list on me, even in jest, I would be horrified and demoralized. The fact that these women are famous is not an excuse to allow us to criticize them for their “thin to anorexic proportions.” The fact is that women like those pictured are drawn to fad diets, anorexia, and starvation by a patriarchal system that values them solely for their bodies. Can we blame these women for posing nude? No, because in the sick cycle that is our culture (especially Hollywood) we only give our attention to beautiful women, and once they have our attention we criticize them if they are not perfect forever (see: Ashley Judd).
It’s hard for me to say that Kai is in the wrong for posting this, because I too find these women attractive and desirable. But reducing them to pros/cons and bandying words like “anorexic” is dangerous territory that I am uncomfortable with.
**Let’s keep the debate healthy and clean, guys. I disagree with you, Kai, but I still love you.
Amen. You are awesome Joanna. Just so you know.
Thanks, Jessica. And thanks for contributing to this healthy debate!
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 2:58 pm
Well, Jo, I respect that but a couple things…
I think it’s a good thing to tell Keira Knightley to eat a Big Mac because she is beautiful and being that thin is unhealthy. She could easily gain 10 to 15 pounds, be healthier and still look stunning.
It didn’t come across in the post but I do think Grey should’ve kept her old nose instead changing it. I say that fully thinking she looks better since having it. My wife sometimes talks about getting touch ups when she’s older and I tell her not to. I think you should embrace what God gave you.
The Pro/Con list is more of a format thing. Don’t read into it too much. I could’ve lost that in a paragraph, said the same things and it would’ve been a non-issue.
Though, I think all guys do do that… whether it’s right or not. They certainly don’t always write them out. Anniston for instance is a stunner but her relationship history would be a red flag for any guy. A “con” if you will. Not sure it would stop any man from dating her but it would pop into your mind.
Kai, some women are just naturally thin. And photoshopped to within an inch of their lives. Lots and lots of photoshop.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 10, 2012 3:53 pm
No. I’ve seen photos of her on the beach by papparazzi and she is very thin. She actually used to be thicker in her earlier pictures and looked great.
Twitter: manilovefilms
April 10, 2012 2:45 pm
If I didn’t know better, I could swear that the title of this post was “Hot or Not – and if you say Not, you mean that they have zero value as a human being.”
I know I’m ignoring a lot of salient points and exaggerating here, but it feels warranted given how far the pendulum has swung the other way.
Here’s what was stated at the top of the post: “I’ve come to realize that there are several women in Hollywood that I find attractive but can’t, for the life of me, decide whether or not I think they are hot.”
Twitter: heather_kenobi
April 10, 2012 2:55 pm
Yep Dylan. Excellent point. It’s no longer about it’s intended topic. Everyone now has a soapbox and everyone’s opinion is a fact. The discussion has diminished to a tit for tat that I admittedly fell into as well and would like to apologize to Joanna for using profanity, I’m pretty sure you aren’t a fan and I didn’t mean it in a disrespectful way, I just enjoy a good curse word from time to time. I’m done here. Kai’s a good egg, no sexest, and those women are DEAD SEXY.
Thanks, Heather. No offense taken. We can all agree to disagree, I think. This is a topic that I (and obviously many others) are very passionate about, and I don’t regret that Kai’s post has led to a discussion that is perhaps not directly related, as you say, to the content of the post itself.
Whether you agree with me or not, I’m glad that we’ve had this discussion. I hope I haven’t been too, as you say, “soap box”-y.
PS I think for a bunch of us, the problem isn’t so much the content of this post as what it represents on a larger scale. It’s indicative of a larger social issue, and that’s where all this debate comes from.
Twitter: agracru
April 11, 2012 7:10 am
I’m inclined to stick with Dylan on this. I don’t think Fey or Grey are really all that hot, but that doesn’t speak to how I value them as human beings. It speaks to what I personally find attractive in a partner. Someone else out there does find them attractive in a magnetic and compelling and sexual way. I don’t. Neither of them possess in abundance any of the traits that I look for in a potential partner– or looked for, as I’ve been with the same woman since I turned 20.
If that makes me shallow, so be it, but I’d question how sensitive our society has become that it’s a negative to talk about what you do or don’t find attractive about members of the opposite– or the same– sex. I’m not a proponent of using reductive language to talk about these sorts of things, and I think a well-rounded and compassionate dialogue about attractiveness is perfectly fine. But reducing people to a single word– “ugly”– isn’t helpful at all, and it’s kind of dishonest in a way. One person’s ugly might be another person’s beautiful.
Not.
I’m not going to enter into the gladiatorial Mad Max arena known as the debate going on in the comments, instead I’ll contribute my thoughts on the questions you’ve raised in the post.
Jennifer Grey-Definitely one of the hotter Jennifer’s out there, although I was more of an Elizabeth Shue guy myself. I’d still say she’s hot though.
Jenny McCarthy-She’s hot…but really not my type at all. Seems a little too fake and she broke up with Jim Carey so I’m forever angry at her lol.
Tina Fey-She’s an odd one for me. Most of the time I wouldn’t qualify her as being “hot” but humor is my biggest must-have in a woman and she’s got that in spades. That and when she gets really dressed up during awards season she can actually out-hot most of the other people there. So depends I guess.
Jennifer Anniston-She WAS my first crush growing up (next to Misty from Pokemon) but I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with her or anything. On a purely physical level…hot.
Keira Knightley-Woman with British accent>any other woman. So yeah…hot.
I actually kind of like these posts, if for no other reason then it’s nice to see everyone’s taste in women. Actually looking forward to the guy one. Interested to see who they put on there.
Wow. Bottom line, if you don’ t like it, don’t read it. This is a fun site to go to where people can kick back and laugh and read some realistic movie reviews.
Get off your high horse and stop ruining it for the rest of us. This thread is about as annoying as some bible thumping, antigay, don’t do drugs, the bible tells me so bs! So help me if Kai stops creating these post because someone gets butt hurt over…oh no…women/men using their bodies to sell their product – themselves!
If celebrities don’t want this type of discussion, then stop posing half nude. I am pretty sure that any person that has ever been on the list would give two shits about it. This feature is supposed to be fun and it is.
Oh wow. I don’t have much to say on the ‘matter’, but Kai (and Dylan): well done for keeping a cool head through all of this. At least this hasn’t turned into a metaphorical bloodbath or something like that. If it were me, I would have shut down my site and hid in a corner for a few weeks (that’s just me, I am a little weakling!)
JENNIFER GREY:: Not.
JENNIFER MCCARTHY: Not. She was like 10 or 15 years ago but now, nope.
TINA FEY: Not. Tina Fey is funny as hell but she isn’t remotely hot
JENNIFER ANISTON: Hot. Seriously, isn’t she like over 40 and she still basically look identical as she was 15 years ago.
KEIRA KNIGHTLEY: Not. With tons of makeup and a corset, she actually looks pretty good. But otherwise, not really.
Sad that I am contributing to what has already caused a slight blogging storm views wise, but I needed to see if this post was as bad as I heard it was, and it is a real shame that you guys couldn’t find anything else to post about apart from this. Sad, really.
Twitter: twitter.com/kloipy
April 11, 2012 7:43 am
So when’s the ‘F, Marry, Kill’ list coming out? I keed i keed
In all seriousness though, I don’t feel I can really comment much as I’m not a woman and don’t want to speak for them, but I will say that this post doesn’t seem like it was meant with any bad will and to deny basic attractions is also ludicrous.
If this upsets people, I hope they are also more upset with things like Glamour and Vogue which seem to be platforms to tell women that they aren’t good enough, smart enough, sexy or pretty enough, and here is what you need to do you dog-faced ghoul.
Just my two cents.
Twitter: kaiderman
April 11, 2012 8:04 am
Thanks, Seth.
Wow. This discussion has grown disproportionate to what the post actually is. Can everyone back up about 100 miles and look at this from a better vantage point?
I’m a woman (YAY!) and a contributor to this site (YAY again!) and a feminist (YAY three times!) And while I understand (and am sympathetic to) some of the questions that have been raised, this appears to have gotten entirely out of control. If we want to have a reasoned discussion of female representation in the media, by all means let’s have it. But not one that devolves into name-calling, baseless accusations of misogyny, and extreme pedagogy. This site has numerous reasoned and serious discussions of film, and numerous posts that are for FUN. This appears to be one of the latter. That it has garnered such extreme reactions seems to be more a sign of the times (and displaced anger) than anything else. If you’re looking for misogyny and objectification, please to direct your ire elsewhere. There are much larger and more important fights to be had. What’s more, throwing a hissy fit does not help the cause any.
I hope it’s understood that I’m directing my comment to those among us who have voiced some very intense opinions without much support, and that I’m sympathetic to everyone who has tried to carry on a reasoned debate. Right. My two cents. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
I think what makes this post degrading to women is simply the comments “Looks good since the nose job” and “butter face.” You comment that a woman’s personality can make them sexy (Tina Fey, Kristin Wiig), but these comments themselves are the first things stated — “You’ll always remember that Dirty Dancing nose.” Therefore she wasn’t pretty based on talent or personality prior to the nose job.
I can understand that this post was meant to be funny, and unfortunately for you it came out at a very important week (publicly) for women who are tired of being judged simply on looks (thank you Ashley Judd). Whether a joke or not you have to be aware of how objectifying this is. If you’d like to do a hot or not column based on personality – I’ll gladly read it.
Twitter: ptsnob
April 11, 2012 7:23 pm
In a weird way, it’s been interesting to see where the post has led. I skimmed through it originally and didn’t think too much of it either way (not really my thing). I checked back after seeing a few comments on Twitter, and the back-and-forth in the comments has been strangely intriguing.
Pretty much every side of the issue has been covered, and I fall somewhere in the middle. I can see why it’s riled up people, especially since this is still a big issue overall. But I’m not sure attacking Kai really solves anything, at least from my perspective. I’m not knocking anyone’s right to speak out, as some commenters have made some good points.
Personally, I’ve only had great experiences interacting with Kai and Dylan in the past year, and although this isn’t my favorite post, I still enjoy a lot of the material on this site. There’s tons of variety from the diverse group of writers each week.
That is the reason why a lot of people do not know about it.
When one mentions about a phone, he or she may be talking
about either the telephone or the mobile version or the cellular phones.
How can I do reverse cell phone lookup to find who owns it.
I do not even understand how I finished up right here, however I assumed this
publish was good. I don’t understand who you are but definitely you are going to a famous blogger when you are not already. Cheers!